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Post by Dale Martens on Dec 20, 2003 15:22:14 GMT -6
Does anybody out there ever find small flies (size 16 or 18 or smaller - dries or nymphs) to be really effective? If so, in what type of situation? I've read a lot about using chironomids on lakes and used them occasionally but never had any real confidence in them.
Dale
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Robert Burton
Fly Fishing Zombie
Eventually all things merge into one, and a river runs through it.
Posts: 4,744
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Post by Robert Burton on Dec 20, 2003 21:03:20 GMT -6
First of i hate the chrony method it is only a little morre intersting than trolling. On lakes i have found that early season small nymphs are a real winner. In mid-summer at dusk i find twitching small flies in the surface film. Mostly you get small fish but it can be suprising. With trout rivers (i guess the type we don't really have around here) small flies are a way of life. But since moving here a # 10 seems small on lakes and rivers. But i still have a box of 20-24 drys......just in case. rb
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Post by cane on Dec 21, 2003 11:36:52 GMT -6
Hi I work with "small " flies almost always. On lakes particulary in the upper 5/6 feet of the water column and on the surface they can be deadly. Size 16/18 Shipmann,s buzzer in Claret or in Black/Teal and Black or Teal and Stripped Peacock herl/ Hutch,s Pennell/Black Pennell they all make great general patterns for that "little dark" stuff spooned from the bellies of McHugh/Lyons/ etc trout .Black Foam Beetles16/18 ) On the Pine there are some wonderfulll evening hatches of small caddis and also spinner falls that tie well on size 18/20. I suspect that what makes small flies so effective ( soft hackles a real case in point) is the sparsness of the dressings, they become a bit more impressionistic and presentation/tactics more important than attractor/or pure immitation considerations.
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Post by caddisguy on Dec 21, 2003 12:37:04 GMT -6
For me small flies and thin water go hand and hand.The fish in streams and rivers tend to be much more selective than in lakes and the entomology in streams is a little different. I think because fish tend to stay in more confined areas in streams they are more reliant on the small stuff on a daily basis. Lakes have tremendous Buzzer/Chironimide hatches and this techniqe of fishing really small patterns has been perfected by the Kamloops Fly fishing community.It is very much a still fishing experience and I like to be more active. Hiking up and down streams is far more appealing than sitting in a boat waiting for something to happen. I like soft hackle flies myself,16-18's are the smallest I tie. The MFFA had Sylvester Nemes for one of their Seminar/Banquets. He calls himself a Soft Hackle Addict also the title for one of his books. The patterns he showed us where very simple to tie and impresionistic in style. He fishes with nothing heavier than a 3 wt rod and is a very succesful spring creek fisherman.The ultimite thin water fishing . He learned this style if fishing when he was stationed in England and has devoted his whole life to developing Soft Hackle patterns for North America. His books are available through Stackpole Books . Give some of his patterns a try I think you will enjoy tying them and and have great success fishing them.
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Robert Burton
Fly Fishing Zombie
Eventually all things merge into one, and a river runs through it.
Posts: 4,744
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Post by Robert Burton on Dec 21, 2003 13:34:44 GMT -6
Help me out. soft hackles and small flies? All the soft hackle i have ever seen is too big to put on a #18 hook or are we talking about something else. For hackle on my 18-24's i use very small whiting (I'll say 'stiff') hackle. But they do float kinda high.
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Post by cane on Dec 21, 2003 18:53:08 GMT -6
Hi
CaddisGuy- yep:))) we should take a stomp on the Pine together sometime:))) I grew up in Scotland fishing soft hackle flies and upstream sparse tied wet flies on the "burns" ( little creeks in NA) It really is a technique that demandsa bit more of a "reading the water" as I would agree with your take- that the fish tend to make a home in spots which meet the "most food for the least energy expended" criteria.
Robert- most North Country/Scottish Border/Clyde style flies can be tied with a Grouse Skin/Golden Pheasant/Pheasant right down to 18,s.There is a lot of colour variation in the feathers( subtle reds/partridge like banding/subtle greys/etc) A lot of nice webby/ wet fly hackles can be got from cheap India cock capes down to 18/20 remembering that often the hackle is merely a single turn. With the skins I also use the hackles with Veniard dyes( Olive brown/Kingfisher Blue/Claret/Dark Olive) to get larger 12/14 soft hackle for traditional Loch/Lake flies.
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Post by caddisguy on Dec 21, 2003 21:27:29 GMT -6
You can get some very small soft hackle from Grouse, Partridges and even other birds like starlings. Never pass up a road kill if your looking for feathers. Small feathers are everywhere just hard to find in Fly shops in Winnipeg( sorry pun intended). The soft hackle Flies are also tied very sparse which is probably why they work so well.
Caddisguy
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Robert Burton
Fly Fishing Zombie
Eventually all things merge into one, and a river runs through it.
Posts: 4,744
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Post by Robert Burton on Dec 21, 2003 21:39:25 GMT -6
Are soft hackle flys really a type of wet fly?
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Post by cane on Dec 21, 2003 22:14:29 GMT -6
Lol Caddis- yep i was,nt going to go there but yepper- roadkill is a good source( keep some Ziplock baggies in the glove compartment:)))) Fits with the tradition too- as they were developed by the thrifty folks of the Borders/Lowlands in the UK and Wales anything free is good!!!!!
Robert- they can be fished in many ways- awash in the surface film as spent or disabled dry patterns/as nymph imitations/swung up in the water column as emergers -there are also variations- add a peacock herl head in front of the hackle/or ostrich herl behind the hackle for a head or thorax. A great many are tied with simple thread bodies with/without a rib- many of the Yorkshire flies use a thread dubbing combo that uses dubbing almost as a haze or fuzz over the thread(hares ear fuzz over yellow thread gives a lovely drab olivey colour when wet). Its really not a trully imitative more of a suggestive/impressionistic approach to tying.
In the UK they are also still used quite extensiveley for loch/lake/resevoir fishing so its not just a river method. I think with the materials available to us hereabouts innovative substitution is the name of the game- IMHO it,s the general colour/ sparse tying and presentation that is the essence of using this approach to tying/fishing
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Post by cane on Dec 21, 2003 22:24:10 GMT -6
Lol- was just sitting thinking about this- perhaps it helps to think of soft hackle as being a micro/sparse version of the same kind of potential material movement as you would see with marabou without the "clumpiness"(if thats a word) Tie one up( any colour thread and a partridge hackle) and work it through the bath tub on a length of line:)))))
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Post by Dale Martens on Dec 22, 2003 2:01:15 GMT -6
Thanks guys... I have to say I've learned a lot from this thread. I'd be very interested in seeing a pic or two of some soft hackles that you use posted on the web site.
Dale
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Post by walleyewarrior on Dec 24, 2003 1:22:09 GMT -6
I spend or have spent a fair amount of time pond fishing and these small flies should be in your arsenal ready at all times. Many times they have saved the day for me. Even casting out a small sz 18 parachute hanging in the water column, where a rise in the general vicinity needs a hook set since thay can be get lost out on the water if not keeping your eyes peeled to them. Same as all other types of flies, they have their time and place. Matching the hatch can mean different things for different waterways. I always have too many flies with me, including the small ones just in case..
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Post by darrellmyskiw on Dec 24, 2003 11:23:57 GMT -6
I've used the small flies a number of times - usually as a last resort. - a couple times the itsy-bitsy-teeny-weenie ones saved the day. But their not on my first choice list.
WW - I have to disagree on one - you can never have too many flies - you just never know.....
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Robert Burton
Fly Fishing Zombie
Eventually all things merge into one, and a river runs through it.
Posts: 4,744
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Post by Robert Burton on Dec 24, 2003 17:46:07 GMT -6
There is no such thing as too many flys. But i have learned to not carry, in my vest, the ones that have no chance of being used. But I'd like to see the trout that hits a pike fly!
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