Robert Burton
Fly Fishing Zombie
Eventually all things merge into one, and a river runs through it.
Posts: 4,744
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Spey
Nov 27, 2004 11:26:04 GMT -6
Post by Robert Burton on Nov 27, 2004 11:26:04 GMT -6
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Spey
Nov 27, 2004 12:22:44 GMT -6
Post by speyistheway on Nov 27, 2004 12:22:44 GMT -6
Dana Sturns Speypages site is well worth the 40.00 US subscription considering the amount of invaluable articles and vids( which are being added to no less). in absence of local qualified instruction. if your looking at trying Spey- then Ed Ward,s Skagit approach is worth looking at or Goran Andersons- Underhand or a version thereof- although requires significant line tinkering to really get into. But it is immensley pertinant to the situations on the Red where i see Spey approach being the most usefull. home.att.net/~slowsnap/spey16.htmfor what its worth there are a number of 5/6 and 6/7 7/8 spey rods now for lighter/smaller fish approaches more for what its worth- but from my limited experience) depending on where you want to go with it- there are some folks who i often wonder if they actually fish or just Spey cast:))- overhead casting with a standard WF at the line rating for the rod( in standard line wt,s -not spey line weights) works well with weighted patterns - simply shoot line into the forward false cast and keep the back cast below the rod tip and shoot the last 10- 15 ft in the presentation cast and your off to the 90 ft races:) the Underhand ( bottom hand pull/top hand locked as the pivot versus pushing with the top hand )approach is FAR!!!!!! easier and more relaxed than the top hand traditional approach- i spent the last 6 weeks before the snow practicing daily on grass and the water and its way more efficeint and makes more sense- with the Underhand style you can pile 40-60 ft of line beside you at a dead standstill and and with ease using just the casting stroke cast it- my experience has been that the tophand dominant cast requires continual line motion and rod load between/during setup and cast to work properly and is more tiring. I can see the traditional long belly old school Spey approach being usefull in some situations but is limited by the fact its essentially a long line/fixed length approach with little if any room in the style for stripping/working back type presentations and more of a swung/full length drift approach presentation hope that helps:)
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Robert Burton
Fly Fishing Zombie
Eventually all things merge into one, and a river runs through it.
Posts: 4,744
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Spey
Nov 29, 2004 12:48:55 GMT -6
Post by Robert Burton on Nov 29, 2004 12:48:55 GMT -6
I have seen a number of vids an photos where the 'top' hand is the right or the left. Being somewhat abidexterous as a drummer, comfortable with my left as a guitarist, shoot left as hockey player and switch hit as a baseball player.... I am excited by this as well. Is it common for spey casters to change the top hand depending on situatuations (even something as simlpe as what shore they are on and the flow direction)? Or am I on my way to becoming the worlds only ambidextorus spey rod catfisher ? In practicing some of the casts (in pantomime only) either top hand feels 'right' to me. I agree the underhand cast do look much simpler and where I figure one should start. What about the still water and the spey rod? Is there a change (or completely new set) in casts? I am thinking that one might get less 'loading' from still water but I have read of spey rodding in surf (but then one might have a current of some sort coming towards on) I have a feeling this might be a looooong winter
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Spey
Nov 29, 2004 13:54:52 GMT -6
Post by speyistheway on Nov 29, 2004 13:54:52 GMT -6
lol@ ambi speycattin- sounds like you may have the same cross dominant -eye hand blessing/gift/curse as i do:) i,m right handed/left eye master - www.clay-shooting.com/faq_series/faq_eyedominance.htm casting left up/switch to right up is good to play with- i found the trad spey approach easier left handed than right just because my right hand had decided it already knew what it wanted to do - and it was hard to break the single handed memory- i,ve been learning some casts cross body instead of switching hands- so set the cast to the left and cast with rod coming of the left shoulder rather than set the cast to the right and cast coming off the right side- if that makes sense There are casts intended for specific bank /wind and direction orientations - dont ask me how all that works i dont know:)))))))) but basically if you look downstream standing in the middle of the river- bank right is to the right-bank left is to the left- so casting downstream and across from bank right would be a double spey- casting from bank left down and across would be a single spey from the underhand aproach is certainly more efficient and relaxed, i found, than the top dominant trad approach- not so sure its simpler:) ) he said after weeks of learning it:)))) -as the top dominant approach seems initially the most obviuos to do as it more closely resembles the action used in single hand casting. i think you have to or i tired too- seperate out what i wanted to do with Spey and looked at what would get me THERE efficiently rather than getting drawn into the "Speycaster" mentality:) Like anything else there are "camps"- long belly folks/shooting head folks/top dominant/underhand it goes on and on:)))- The best advice i got so far was to QUOTE-reasearch the advantages of the different styles and pick an approach that most closely fits your fishing situations and concentrate on that exclusivley- so Classic Underhand?Traditional?Skagit and their associated casts- as the styles are quite specifically different and jumping around leads nowhere other than bad habits:)))) once you have a style down- then look at another one ENDQUOTE sounded like great advice to me:))))))) Doesnt mean you cant learn them all- just do it one at a time and go fish:)) You dont need a current to PRACTISE Spey casting so you could practice in a lake- that said nearly all the casts are designed to pickup from a downstream position and reposition the line for -depending on the style used anywhere from 45 to almost 180 degs upstream from that original position - you do need "stick" - you can make a ""grass leader" for grass practise as well- not sure other overhead/shooting head lake spey would make sense Despite the fact that folks make a big deal about the distance thing with Spey I think thats a minor aspect and in many ways missing the point ( you could do the distance thing with a shooting head setup on a single handed rod just as well i,d bet if your just looking for 100+ft casts)- its simply easier/requires less energy output to cast large or weighted patterns /tips on long lengths ( 50-80 +ft )of high wt lines and maintain control across multiple seams or heavy currents while wading or without any backcast room and easier to play large fish in the same water than with a single handed rod. From what i understand the surf folks use a lot of heavy shooting heads or your basic overhead cast just done two handed with a spey rod the thing that seems makes all the diff is just going out and practising and building up the muscle memory and feel/balance- the vids and written stuff helps quite a bit- but just for the basic concept of the casts and approaches- bit like riding a bike ))))) i,d look through the Speypages forums and do some searches in there to use it as a means to sort out where you want to go with it:)) hope that helps
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Spey
Dec 4, 2004 13:28:21 GMT -6
Post by whistler on Dec 4, 2004 13:28:21 GMT -6
I would agree that Dana's site is well worth the cash for the amount of time that he puts into it. Then again two handed casting is remarkably easy to learn provided you are starting with decent equipment and your line is a good match for the rod. Spey is at a bit of a crossroads as, equipment wise it has splintered into a variety of categories specific to closely related techniques. Rods and lines especially have improved in the last few years. Whether someone is casting a 15 footer with a long belly line or a shooting head with a shorter rod, on the beach or in the river we are all trying to accomplish the same thing-get the fly to the fish with a minimal amount of effort. With this in mind I would like to offer the following advice-shorter is better. At my shop we sell more two handers than any store in Canada and it has been a long time since I remember selling a a rod longer than 14'. For most of our Salmon and Steelhead fishing an 8 weight of 11'-13' is perfect. For heavier species a #9 rod of 11'6" -13'8" is ideal. This is the direction that spey is going: shorter, lighter, faster rods designed to fish lines with a head length of 35'-65'. There are many FISHING advantages to rods and lines of this size and it is the direction things will be going.The longer stuff is good for showing off on the casting pond but has many disadvantages when compared to these more modern fishing rods. Also as mentioned spey is gaining popularity for smaller fish(Trout) and off the beach as well.
Brian Niska
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Spey
Dec 4, 2004 16:55:36 GMT -6
Post by speyistheway on Dec 4, 2004 16:55:36 GMT -6
thanks for input Brian! and welcome aboard- great to hear from someone with your expertise and experience- our situation here ranges from very heavy flows/backed up into the bushes - to moderately heavy/wadable /open river access. On fish to getting up to 40"+ both carp and catfish- patterns tend toward deep clousers in cat loving- goldeye/shiner ties - or shudder:) adaptations of traditional hairwing patterns- Munro K /Jeannie/Thunder and L etc. Carp on crayfish/leech/big hex nymph type stuff . The cats tend to hold in holes split by and or off multiple current seams while there are other very successfull approaches taken- my own has centered around either a current speed drift with the pattern worked a little over the hole or a "greased line style" approach- cast/downstream mend to get the pattern broadside and moving over current speed and a light up mend to "drop" it into the target. Given what seemed to be working the Spey approach seemed more tailored to the circumstances, especially in spring with zero back room and heavy flows/big fish- an average cat 34/35" will be well into the backing on the first run and they KNOW how to use the current to their advantage:)))- - that said its only been one season so its all a work in progress:) as far as Spey goes. It should be noted some of the folks in here have been taking cats on the single handed fly for years- i just dont like being out gunned/unable to get at- some of the monsters that have humiliated me this year:))))))
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Spey
Dec 4, 2004 17:07:14 GMT -6
Post by speyistheway on Dec 4, 2004 17:07:14 GMT -6
the river and the cute as a button( notice the adipose:))) Red River Salmon:)
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Spey
Dec 5, 2004 0:03:45 GMT -6
Post by whistler on Dec 5, 2004 0:03:45 GMT -6
up until this morning I didn't even know it was possible to fish for Catfish on the fly. So far, from what I have read it sounds like the spey is the ideal tool. I do have a few questions:
-how big a fly are you using? -would a large or heavily weighted fly be anadvantage? -sink tips, how heavy and how long? -is all fishing taking place on the swing or stripping? -would a fly that moves more help?
To sum it up I am curious if some of the stuff that works for winter Steelhead and Chinook Salmon might apply here too. I am thinking that if big bouncy flies fished deep in heavy current with little space for backcasts this could help,esspecially if there is wind involved.Out of curiousity what rod, and line system are you fishing?
Brian
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Spey
Dec 5, 2004 11:21:27 GMT -6
Post by speyistheway on Dec 5, 2004 11:21:27 GMT -6
-flies for me went up to 1/0-2/0 up eye salmon hooks with barbells or tungsten sheet weighted and down to #4 barbell/tungsten weighted when the flows are up( this spring May/June/July we were averaging 20-40,000 CFS:)))))))) though the normal average is around 8-10,000 CFS- which is where i,m sure your analogy to winter steelhead/salmon is dead on!!!!- and what attracted me to trying Spey- after reading about what you folks are doing under similar curcumstances out there:) -this summer July/Aug we were at 5,000 CFS and a little below on average so it was possible to lighten up:))) normal average is around closer to 2,500 CFS -"flies that move" yep folks use wooly bugger patterns to good effect - i,m just a tad eccentric or obstinate or...... )) and wanted to explore some of the styles that have been associated with swung /drift in the spey tradition- and see if they could be adapted to work here- currently playing with tying spey and dee styles- i like the long soft hackle form and i,m sure it could work really well. - my setup is a late 70,s Farlow UK ( either B&W or Sharpes built- not sure which) 14 ft 9/10 spigot ferruled glass ( a background fishing bamboo has me liking slower -medium rods) bit of a brute at 420 grms/14 oz but casts just beautifully with my slow/lazy bamboo induced approach and i can fish it all day without getting exhausted - the line i have been experiment with (crudely) for tips/skagit type approach is a Hardy 11 wt with most of the belly chopped out and the front taper taken down to 6 ft from a 10 wt- for a length of 35 ft with front /belly and 3ft back taper @ 420 grains- and either 8 ft of LC13 @ 105 grains or 10 ft of 9wt type V1 @ 80 grains for tips.Obviously crude and it needs the weight distributed more WF but it has allowed me to start on the road:). I,d love to find a source for short lengths 10 -20 ft of 12,14 wt to try Homer2handed,s/ i think its Ed Wards formula but so far with no luck- the middle of the prairies is a tough place to decide to Spey fish:)) I,m getting good fishable casts that let me work stripped presentations,though the head /tip might be a bit light- i thought it better to start that way than too heavy? - have ordered a Airflo Delta 9/10 to try out as well - as a line for straight swinging unweighted patterns higher in the water column. - both swing and stripped presentations work so it will be nice to have both available would love to hear your suggestions on possible patterns/approaches/setups that you use that might fit the bill here:))))) especially what your doing with tips/short heads/big patterns/big wind/no backcast room or any other insights you care to share:)
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Spey
Dec 5, 2004 18:27:22 GMT -6
Post by whistler on Dec 5, 2004 18:27:22 GMT -6
I am starting to think that you are a misplaced Steelheader since you like tying fancy flies and chopping up perfectly good fly lines. The rod you are using sounds like a real classic. I think you will find that it will perform best with the weight spread out over a longer distance. With this in mind I think you will find your rod casts well with either a Rio midspey or airflow long delta, both of which have head lengths around 65'. As with all things Spey, just about any line will work on any rod with a few adjustments. The 9/10(short?)delta will be fine on your rod. Without having cast it I am doing a little guessing here but I am fairly certain that an Airflow long delta in a 8/9 will give you the best casting performance. If heavy tips and big flies are needed I think you will find something with a shorter head length will work better. Unfortunately you will find that when the weight is spread out over a relatively short distance(underhand and Skagit styles) a shorter faster rod works better than what you are using. I don't by any means suggest you won't be able to underhand cast a shooting head on your rod, just that you will probably be plagued with tailing loops and have abit of a time lifting the heavy fly and tip out of the water. As for chopping up lines to build Skagit style heads it really isn't that necessarry as there are many very good commercially made options about. Rio has a new full length Skagit head coming out and there are many good shooting heads out there. My personal favourite are the LOOP adapted heads which simply put are the best of what is out there. A large part of my business used to be chopping up #12 DT's to make good shooting heads for guys but now it is easier to just sell the LOOP heads. By the way if you find your new 9/10 delta a little heavy I would suggest you do the following to make a sick tip launching rig:
-cut the back of the line 4' into the head from the running line and install a kevlar loop -cut the front end 16' from the front end and install a kevlar loop -purchase 50# rio slickshooter running line and loop it onto the back of your 'new' head -attach whatewver nasty tip deemed necessary and be careful not to get any running line tangled around your leg when you let that sucker go!
As mentioned your rod isn't designed for this style of casting so it will take a little bit of practice. You should still be able to use a lot of underhand but will have to smooth it out with a long push with the top hand.
I think if I was going to try your fishery I would use a similar rig to what i use for Chinook Salmon. A #9 of between 11'6"-13'6" with head of 35' with a 12' tip and a weighted fly.
It really looks like you guys are doing something cool and fishing in a way that many people don't even know is possible. I should send you out a fly or two to see if they would work.
Brian Niska
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Spey
Dec 6, 2004 11:02:22 GMT -6
Post by darrellmyskiw on Dec 6, 2004 11:02:22 GMT -6
I am starting to think that you are a misplaced Steelheader . . . thanks - needed that for a Monday a.m. Might be helpful to know that Speyistheway is a displaced / transforming salmonid pursuer - so you're not far off the mark ...... Hey Speyistheway - your head-piece - I like it ... but its ... kinda ....... clean Welcome along . . . darrell, now I starts thinkin .... I just might NEED another rod ..... hmmmm, which would that be
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Spey
Dec 6, 2004 11:50:41 GMT -6
Post by speyistheway on Dec 6, 2004 11:50:41 GMT -6
Ty for the guidance:))) You realize of course i,m going to have to hide all the scissors in the house after that " sick tip launcher" suggestion:)))
"misplaced steelheader" lol wheres the fun if you cant tinker:)
"tailing loops" i did find if i stayed relaxed and very smooth that wasnt a prob- if I got aggressive or tried to force the issue oh dear:(((((
Our season is now tying season- til May -but sure - i,d love to try some Steelhead patterns - we have a few local ones that may work out there for you:))
btw theres a chat on Thursday nights not a lot of folks but it tends to be a lot of fun - if you find yourself with some time to spare.
How,s the fishing been out there? I get the impression your going almost year round - you may tempt a few " i need to fish in winter" Manitobans:))
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