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Post by caddisguy on Oct 1, 2004 21:04:02 GMT -6
Has anyone been following the daily series on CBC Radio called a Sea of Trouble-Lake Winnipeg in Crisis. it has been a wonderfully done program aon the problems of nutrient loading in Lkae Winnipeg. Some of the facts are quite startling. For the last number of years there have been huge algie blooms. Does 4,000 to 8,000 square Km completely covered by te toxic algie blooms. Some of you may have already expeienced this phenomena if you fished Pelican lake in south west manitoba. It litterely looks and acts like a slick of green paint. there is lots of information about this on www.winnipeg.cbc.ca. Check it out i think it is fascinating and is effecting fishing in the whole lake Winnipeg water shed. Winnipeg has been getting a lot of the blame over the years for being the main contributer of polution to the Red and Lake Winnipeg. In actual fact we contribute only 6%. unfortunaly I think the " Sustainable Development' our goverments have been pushing for so many yearsa is about to bite us in the ass.
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Post by darrellmyskiw on Oct 2, 2004 6:44:12 GMT -6
I didn't know of the daily series ... thanks. I recall hearing of this a few times, and my ears perk up when I hear it. Its an alarming state, and as I understand it, the main problem being high quantities of phosphorus and nitrogen. The lake is a catch basin for ... well, see this www.gov.mb.ca/lakewinnipeg/facts/index.html - a huge chunk of land. The Canadian Coast Guard has a research vessel, the CCGS Namao stationed on the lake - and I believe, control of said vessel has been handed over from the Feds to the province a couple months ago. The province also has set up its own Lake Winnipeg Stewardship Board. So - Sustainable developement - sure they can develope another level of burocratic carp that sustain themselves with a name that's ... to look good, cross arms and point fingers, lay blame on everyone but take soem responsibility themselves, and do nothing to fix the actual problem. The state of Lake Winnipeg has been compared to that of the Great Lakes before the major clean-up took place (and continues) there. Another good site is www.lakewinnipegresearch.org/ The Lake Winnipeg Research Council opened its doors to schools and organizations - for educational experiences. Anyone not get sea sick Hows your sea legs info on CCGS Namao www.ccg-gcc.gc.ca/vessels-navires/viewImg_e.asp?imgid=140&id=I-1
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Robert Burton
Fly Fishing Zombie
Eventually all things merge into one, and a river runs through it.
Posts: 4,744
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Post by Robert Burton on Oct 2, 2004 8:37:14 GMT -6
So anyone have a thumbnail sketch on the problem? Is it farm land, septic fields, Winnipeg sewage? Are environmental standards in the US more or less strident than here?
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Post by fishinmusican on Oct 2, 2004 14:55:38 GMT -6
I've heard some of it and liked it alot. You know RB personally I think We're all at the root of the problem and we need to stop pointing the finger at each other and all pitch in to solve the problem. Thiscould mean that we will all have to learn to do with less. I've always felt that this view of Sustainable Development brings huge problems. What are acceptable levels for pollouting our waters? Personally I think we need to adopt the mindset of zero levels but most people would say that I'm out of my mind but as long as greed dives our decisions this is what will happen.....KIM
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Post by caddisguy on Oct 3, 2004 6:13:57 GMT -6
Thanks for your links to other sites related to Lake Winnipeg Darrel. This is what makes the board so interesting. The quick exchange of information between the members. I write a section for the MFFA newsletter called "Websters Page". I'm always looking for sites that have local pertinent information on the enviroment or FF information.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2004 7:05:49 GMT -6
Where's it coming from?
Re: Robert's question: the source is manyfold, but the majority is "non-point" ie coming off the land. Unfortunately, most of the drainage area of Lake Wpg. is found in agricultural regions - from south of the Border right to the Rocky Mountains. It has been estimated that over half the problem starts in the U.S.
Having said that, there are a number of "point" sources that have to be dealt with as well. Winnipeg, Brandon, Grand Forks, etc, are all major centres that have to be improved.
The comparisons are always made to Lake Erie but, that lake was a much easier "fix" because it was coming mostly from cities and industries that could easily (albeit at a great cost) fix the problem. Here, we have provincial, state and international juristictions trying to deal with runoff from thousands of farms as well as widely scattered towns and villages, most of which have minimal wastewater treatment.
Overall, Fishinmusician hits the nail on the head; we all contribute to the problem, so we should all expect to contribute to the solution. And it won't be cheap...TIM
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Post by caddisguy on Oct 4, 2004 21:13:30 GMT -6
Creeks start one Rain drop at a time. Streams start one creek at a time. Rivers start one Stream at a time. Lakes start one River at a time. unfortunaly we rarely get to see the end results of our own individual contributions untill they become a large problem like Lake Winnipeg.
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Post by darrellmyskiw on Oct 5, 2004 7:09:24 GMT -6
HEY - I get ot quote Red Green : ;D "We're all in this together." Wether its a urban resident or rural resident, we all contribute. Sure some more than others, with out a doubt. But if anyone wants anything left for their remaining years, or their kids, or grandkids ...... we all have to pitch in to help. do you think duct tape will work
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Post by darrellmyskiw on Feb 21, 2005 13:47:09 GMT -6
last week I was thinking waht was happening here... Found an item in the National Post about this - went straight to the source's mouth for the real-deal. Sounds like the Lake Winnipeg Stewardship Board has made its interim report : www.lakewinnipeg.org/web/index.shtmlGo to the LWSB Publications tab and the full Interim report can be located there. Lots of suggestions - poked in many directions - doesn't seem to finger any one group out ... (might yet - still reading). dm,
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Post by caddisguy on Feb 21, 2005 14:50:23 GMT -6
Thanks for the up date Darrel. It's nice to see that someone else is interested in what's happening in lake Winnipeg. Many problems here with the drainages in the Lake Winnipeg basin. They can poke fingers in all the directions they want . The number one issue is to recover the reparian zones on all the drains. This would bring back much needed wildlife corodors and vastly inprove the water quality going into the lake. Number 2 is Winnipeg has to get their act together and up grade the water treatment facilities and we have to be willing to pay for that. We need seroiuse help from our neibors in all directions to clean up their water that ends up here. It is a monumental task but one that is imperitive to our survival and quality of life.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2005 17:26:28 GMT -6
Actually, if you just look at the sources of nutrients to Lake Winnipeg FROM WITHIN MANITOBA, agriculture contributes about 35% and Winnipeg contributes about 25% of that total load.
When the Minister of Water Stewardship says that there "...are 1.1 million sources of nutrients to Lake Winnipeg" he's pretty-well bang on. It's time for everyone to be held accountable for their contribution...TIM
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Post by speyistheway on Feb 21, 2005 19:17:52 GMT -6
i sometimes think that the magnitude of these issues dwarfs peoples sense that they personally can have a meaningfull effect. My " lawn" is a mix of grass ,clover, cut leaf anenome(gathered from wild seed) , wild flax,dandilions(happen to love them:))) ,toadflax and blue eyed grass:)))). No fertilizer,pesticide,herbicide required:) My neighbours entrenched in a g*lf course green lawn approach expend -at least to me - enormous amounts of energy/money and chemical applications to perpetuate that dream and seem oblivious to the fact that those chemicals enter the system and add to the load.. AIts a great place for folks to begin re-examining thier relationship and responsibility with a little flexible re-thinking of what constitutes a "nice" front lawn:))))))
Will
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Post by darrellmyskiw on Feb 21, 2005 19:57:30 GMT -6
... g*lf course green lawn ....... ...... re-thinking of what constitutes a "nice" front lawn:)))))) Will I hears ya. You can putt-putt those little dimpled balls into a hole in brown grass too It is a minor struggle, not to just inform people, but to get them to listen, realize - AND then get them to actually care. I struggle with it daily just at home but if I get through to those 3 people ... maybe they can get 3 people ...... its gotta start somewhere. I'm with you on the lawns - almost I have a pet peeve with those little yellow flowers - other than that - no feed or even extra waterings for them (hey - if it turns brown - less to cut - more time to go FFing). But you know ... I believe its time to re-evaluate those flowers - raise rabbits in stead of herbicides zonker strips ... nope .... by-product .... hmmms .... Anyhow - quite a bit of info in LWSB's site - a lot of work I sure went into finding and documenting what's there - tehn to sort it into usefull packages ...... Its amazing - when you take a look at the data - at what MB contributes - and from where. A schmuck like me can even figgure it out I takes the interest as this ever incresing material world puts pressures on our resources - I'm doing what I can to try to make sure my kids (and their kids ... and so on) have a place to play and live. Its a humbling thought that down the road my kids (grand or otherwise) might be struggling for what we take for granted - water.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2005 10:03:33 GMT -6
Interesting lawn, Will!
When I moved to my house in Fort Garry, 20+ years ago, a drought hit and I refused to water the grass. Among the spread of brown, there were seven green patches that ended up growing 3' tall -- remant stands of big bluestem, one of the "anchor" species of the tall-grass prairie that once shaped the Red River valley. (Tall-grass species, with deep root systems, ramp up their growth in the heat of a drought.)
The biologist in me was intrigued so, each year I would let one bathtub-sized patch grow up and go to seed. True to it's "tall-grass" monniker, it would get 2 1/2 to 3' tall and I would dutifully cut all the lawn around it to a suburban standard. It was my little prairie shrine, but it took four years before a neighbour came around to ask about it -- we have a very deferential neighbourhood.
Sadly, the patch eventually died out, killed by four-footed agents: my dogs. They just couldn't resist all a 'green' hydrant and pissed so much nitrogen on it that quackgrass eventually invaded.
Why on earth would anyone fertilize their lawn? It just cuts into fishing time....TIM
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Robert Burton
Fly Fishing Zombie
Eventually all things merge into one, and a river runs through it.
Posts: 4,744
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Post by Robert Burton on Feb 22, 2005 10:59:58 GMT -6
Don't get me started on lawns too many folks out there treat their lawns better than their fellow humans..........) There is a huge list of things we as individuals can do. It may seem lie a drop in the bucket but if each of the 1.6 million in this province did it that is a lot of 'drops'. Plus as outdoors people we should be the shining example. I just don't buy the "why should I stop using lead/bleach/thinner/aeresols etc when the factory up the street is way worse than me" logic. We should have our house in order before pointing fingers. here are a few off the top of my head and I am sure the bigger minds on this board can add more. The aforementioned "Get your Lawns Off Drugs" weeds are green too. Minimize the use of chlorine laundry and cleaning products in particular. WHat are you flushing down? No meat, no oil, no thinners, no rubber, no dental floss, no paint etc as there are very few things you can put in the sewer. Use and find a biodegradable windshield washer (even plain water) in the summer. THe alcohol based stuff is needed in the winter but that stuff contributes to the run off. And these are just the ones based on water land fills and air pollution are another area
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2005 16:22:43 GMT -6
In the context of Lake Winnipeg, a big help would be to stup using any detergent that has phosphates. That is the primary cause of eutrophication (algae blooms, oxygen starvation,etc) in the lake.
Now, if anyone can tell me what brands of laundry detergent are phosphate-free, I'd appreciate it, 'cause I ain't practicing what I'm preaching...yet....TIM
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Post by darrellmyskiw on Feb 22, 2005 17:21:52 GMT -6
. . . I ain't practicing what I'm preaching...yet....TIM I don't think so Tim ..... oooooh, always wanted to say that Just don't be too quick to judge yet - you might be surprised as I am now .... Did a search - here's what I found of the major detergent brands : what brands of laundry detergent are phosphate-free Tide www.tide.com/ (Tide, Downy, Bounce, Febreeze, Ivory Snow) The cleaning agents in Tide are biodegradable. Tide box made from 100 percent recycled paper fiber No Tide product sold for household use in the United States or Canada contains phosphates Hats-off to Tide - the only web-site I found prtinent info on (ok - its the detergent of use in our home too) Then there's the Soap and Detergent Association www.cleaning101.com/laundry/lda/facts4.html The SDA claims that phosphate in laundry detergents causes environmental problems is not true. Basically stating detergents are manufactured to standards that employ safe levels of phosphates ... bla, bla, bla..... you know - the "it's only a small amount .. won't hurt a thing ..." schpeil. Other Detergents . . . Gain - no info on-line Cheer - no info on-line Wisk - no on-line info Misc. Info on phosphates in Detergents Phosphates - A key nutrient in ecosystems, phosphates are natural minerals important to the maintenance of all life. Their role in laundry detergents is to remove hard water minerals and thus increase the effectiveness of the detergents themselves. They are also a deflocculating agent; that is, they prevent dirt from settling back onto clothes during washing. While relatively non-irritating and non-toxic in the environment, they nonetheless contribute to significant eutrophication of waterways and create unbalanced ecosystems by fostering dangerously explosive marine plant growth. Note: The major laundry detergent manufacturers no longer use phosphates in their formulations. So - if you're of the majority who use the Tide line of products ... SURPRISE ! ! ! Now if you're using the Binford 6000 washing machine .... we need to talk.
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Post by caddisguy on Feb 22, 2005 21:07:13 GMT -6
Darrel you definitly have missed your calling ;D You need to be a consultant or something. You sure know how to get to bottom of something ;D Anything ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2005 12:58:24 GMT -6
...if I had a loonie for every time someone snickered when they said, "I don't think so, Tim...! Darrell: good bit of bird-dogg'n on the detergent stuff. I also did some checking and learned that sometimes you have to dig deeper on the claims of the Soapers (no relation). For example, "biodegradable" does not mean lack of P or that it's a good choice for the environment. Having said that, if Tide is truly P-free then I'll happily become a Tide Guy. As for the claims of the Soapers that phosphorus (P) really isn't the problem, the research on P is sound. Much of it was done out of the Freshwater Institute in Winnipeg and the Experimental Lakes Area in NW ON. P is the most limiting nutrient in most freshwater systems. More P means more algae blooms and more scum on the rocks, etc. When we talk about algae blooms, we are talking about explosive growth and accumulation of blue-green algae. This form of algae is fed on very little by tiny aquatic animals (zooplankton). In this little story, we can think of blue-green algae as BAD ALGAE. (Hey: every story needs a villain.) The other major grouping of algae, green algae, is fed upon extensively by zooplankton, which is fed upon by bugs and minnows, which is fed upon by fish we catch, etc. Green algae: aka GOOD ALGAE. The three elements that are most needed for growth are carbon, nitrogen and phosphorus. When more P comes into the system, it can always be balanced by more C, which can be absorbed into water from the atmosphere and all plants can convert C to a usable form through photosynthesis. With N, it happens that BAD ALGAE can "fix" additional supplies (convert N from the water to a usuable form) but the GOOD ALGAE cannot. So, theoretically, there will never be a shortage of N for the BAD ALGAE, because, like C, it can continue to be absorbed into the water from the atmosphere. Unlike N and C, very little P is available from the atmosphere: just about all P comes from sediments or runoff into our waterways. Simply put, the more we add more P to lake systems, the more we tip the balance in favour of BAD ALGAE. I have been told that one pound of P can be converted to 500 pounds of algae! Now, it has been estimated that the annual load of P in Lake Winnipeg has increased by 570 tons/year over the last 25 years. (And we were starting to stress the lake back then.) Is it any wonder that algae blooms hundreds of square miles in size are now a regular occurence on the lake? As for the Soapers' claims of "safe" P levels, the basic biology shows those statements to be nothing more than poo-poo - especially with today's nutrient-stressed systems. More P, more problem: plain and simple. Whew!...for those who endured this rant to the bitter end, sorry 'bout all that. I just can't stand it when the industry continues to spout junk science. ...TIM
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Post by darrellmyskiw on Feb 23, 2005 14:11:04 GMT -6
Caddis - Consultant ! ! ! ... naw - then people would expect things of me, constantly ..... this way - I do what I want to do because I'm danged interested in it besides, gives me a mental break - during coffee breaks from work ..... but I don't think its to the bottom of it all yet ... every time you're almost there - SNAP[/i] ... its ... like .... dunno .... Tim - I forgot to expand there (really - I meant to ...) Everything degrades - its an objects natural occurance to return to its raw elements - but some degrade faster than others. When dumped into the environment to decompose, items are somehow noted as being biodegradeable. Due to this - people think its ok if its flagged as biodegradeable a bit of a misnomer But in this case - when green algae becomes overabundant the decaying algae depletes oxygen levels. So even good algae can become bad ... NEXT ! ! !
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2005 15:10:49 GMT -6
Darrell:
Right you are re: green algae but, because can be consumed by zooplankton, an increase in green algae, to a point, will result in a greater flush of productivity for the whole system. With blue-greens, all ya get is scum. Of course, when it dies, then you get oxygen depletion from the decomposition. In some of our most eutrophic (high nutrient) waters, summer-kill events associated with the collapse of algae blooms are common. This became a significant issue when they were trying to develop a rainbow trout farming industry in the shallow lakes around Erickson...TIM
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Post by fishinmusican on Feb 23, 2005 21:41:13 GMT -6
Well if an ocean starts with a raindrop, then saving not only Lake Winnipeg but all our waters for sure starts with one person. I'll be examing what my part is in the problem. Then the next step is being part of a solution. Good info guys.....Kim
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Post by darrellmyskiw on Feb 24, 2005 10:17:50 GMT -6
Took a good look at the Interim report form LWSB (finished reading) ….. lots of good points and recommendations (I think). For the most – everyone is being treated equal – and I mean everyone. Aside of the recommendation that businesses should get a break from paying there share – everything else was good. Well, if 5 % of the recommendations are actioned and put into place – its at least a start. Took another boo about the web. Figured something had to be out there for what one can do about the home (this isn't a new problem). Not to inundate with info or multiple sites – the following is about the best nutshell - from Minnesota. www.trwa.ws/choices.htm Another item – quite easy also – is to collect rain water from your eaves for watering flower beds or small gardens. Yeah, yeah – standing water = mosquitoes and all. Put a lid on it – or as a minimum a fine screen overtop. That way any mosquitoes that get in to procreate, have a hard time getting out. And if you’re really concerned then, add a half a teaspoon of vegetable oil to the water. It will create a film and prevent mosquito hatches. We had rain barrels on the farm - and honestly, the mosquitoes weren't much a problem from them. ok – I’ll step aside from my environmental box for now. Kinda surprise I’m as interested as I is – but its all for the best – fisheries and family time to go ... respool a reel or something .... maybe cast at passing busses or something ....
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