Robert Burton
Fly Fishing Zombie
Eventually all things merge into one, and a river runs through it.
Posts: 4,744
|
Post by Robert Burton on Sept 16, 2019 12:43:41 GMT -6
Once in a while I'll see some high and mighty type rag on a fellow fly rodder about their vintage or version of catch and release. I have been at this a long time and C&R has come a long way in that time. It has had many stages. From what fish to keep or throw back to never taking a fish to hand wetting to changes in nets to carrying portable aquariums for pictures. The most important aspect is releasing.How to do it best is secondary, but if you are interested in a lower mortality rate, you should look at more modern techniques. As much as it will rub some folks the wrong way, and all things being equal, a fly caught fish has a way better survival rate than a bait caught fish. So... If you are going to correct someones C&R technique on a fly rod forum, we'd better see 400% more of that on the conventional gear forums. Somewhat related: Not my photo but here is a, soon to be dead, cormorant with a quadrupedal pickerel rig embedded in it's wing. Sure hope they were barbless hooks
|
|
|
Post by rfourn on Sept 16, 2019 17:52:30 GMT -6
Well said Robert. I use social media to record my memories and sometimes get attacked for the handling of the fish. I'll be the first to admit specially when I get excited after a nice catch of not handling the fish properly. But as I learn I plan on getting better. I can honestly say I never killed a fish that I noticed. I'm always worried when one bleeds when release if he will survive. It gives me great pleasure thinking someone else will have the experience of catching the same fish. I dont like seeing kids fishing on Lafarge with a bucket full of small mouths caught on pickerel rigs but they are having fun and one day they will learn. Again...I'm bad when it come to holding the fish on the bump board and taking a pic. Very hard ...need 3 hands. Lockport is so bad for injured pelicans...glad they started to put bins on shore. I always make it a habit to clean debris on the shore.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2019 19:32:45 GMT -6
I was under the impression Time out of water and Water Temp were the two main critical factors in mortality rates. Besides the obvious vertical fish holds and deep hooking issues. Just because a fish swims away does not mean it will live .
"study by R.A. Ferguson and B.L. Tufts looked at the amount of time a trout was exposed to air after being caught. Fish that were released without being held out of the water had a 12 percent mortality. But fish held out of the water for 30 seconds had a 38 percent mortality rate; more than one in three fish died. Fish out of the water for a full minute saw a 72 percent death rate"
and
"Michigan Department of Natural Resources’s Marquette Research Station reported in 2017 showed mortality of angler-released fish averaged 43 percent when the surface water temperature exceeded about 50 degrees. Mortality dropped to 15 percent when surface water temperatures were below 50 degrees. That’s 1 out of 9 fish released dead under good conditions and more than 4 out of 10 in warmer water."
There are fisheries where the hours of fishing are restricted to times of the day when the temps favor the fish surviving C+R.
Quote - " The most important aspect is releasing.
How to do it best is secondary, but if you are interested in a lower mortality rate, you should look at more modern techniques " unQuote
Not sure what modern techniques might be/mean ?
While it is certainly true that there is a subset of baitfishers whose practice does not seem to have the welfare of the fish as a value. There are bait fishers who are the equal to or beyond the most C+R fly rodder when it comes to concern for the target fish . Check out Euro Carp anglers and the rigs/setups/gear used , all with the expressed intent of ensuring the continued long life of the fish.
I have had deeply hooked fly caught fish many times while nymphing or streamer fishing. I have never had a Hair Rig caught fish that was hooked anywhere other than where the mechanics of the rig was designed to hook - the corner of the mouth.
|
|
|
Post by lurker1818 on Sept 17, 2019 6:29:07 GMT -6
Met a very nice fellow a few weekends ago at Patterson, and we discussed the C+R thing on these lakes, and the pressure that they are getting. The topic soon turned to the ice holes. With these lakes being so easy to access and the pressure put on them in winter, just look at the master angler record book and see when a lot of these big fish are caught. Even if these fish are released, they have been handled, photographed, and frozen, before being dumped back into a hole. I know myself that it sometimes takes SEVERAL minutes to revive a trout caught in open water, being careful to make sure it is good to go before finally releasing my grip. I am guilty of letting go too early or the fish slips out of my grip, and I watch it sink to the bottom, chances are pretty good that it did not survive. Now these ice fishers, after photos and freezing, just dump the fish into the hole and hope.
|
|
Robert Burton
Fly Fishing Zombie
Eventually all things merge into one, and a river runs through it.
Posts: 4,744
|
Post by Robert Burton on Sept 17, 2019 8:52:12 GMT -6
I was under the impression Time out of water and Water Temp were the two main critical factors in mortality rates. Besides the obvious vertical fish holds and deep hooking issues. The actual releasing of the fish is the most important aspect. It is part of the actual phrase. If you don't release the fish it will die. Other factors leading up to the release affects the mortality rate on a sliding scale based on fish handling, but NOT releasing the fish has a 100% mortality rate. Pretty simple really.
|
|
|
Post by rfourn on Sept 17, 2019 16:40:37 GMT -6
I know base on experience that Rainbow trout are very sensitive when it come to being out of the water. While a Brown has more endurance. I lipped a lot of Bass ...largemouth and peacocks, did not know that was Bad for them! Not sure I understand the difference between being dragged by a hook and lipping makes a diff. ( again of course size makes a diff.)
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2019 19:12:07 GMT -6
Met a very nice fellow a few weekends ago at Patterson, and we discussed the C+R thing on these lakes, and the pressure that they are getting. The topic soon turned to the ice holes. With these lakes being so easy to access and the pressure put on them in winter, just look at the master angler record book and see when a lot of these big fish are caught. Even if these fish are released, they have been handled, photographed, and frozen, before being dumped back into a hole. I know myself that it sometimes takes SEVERAL minutes to revive a trout caught in open water, being careful to make sure it is good to go before finally releasing my grip. I am guilty of letting go too early or the fish slips out of my grip, and I watch it sink to the bottom, chances are pretty good that it did not survive. Now these ice fishers, after photos and freezing, just dump the fish into the hole and hope. You bring up a couple of great points. Ice Fishing / The Master Angler Program and the effects of playing fish. Ice Fishing - It seems obvious that if you are ice fishing you are harvesting, so if you like to eat fish then just eat them, it is probably pointless to pretend that released fish have anything other than a minimum chance of survival . Maybe if you release the fish and want some ground to stand on then perhaps you are returning the nutrients back into the system:). Master Angler Program - I have never understood why the program encourages folks to mis-handle fish for the sake of a picture or take them out the water to sit on a measuring stick - for a picture which shows this, that and the next requirement . Because without proper instruction people are going to handle fish for the sake of a picture that might be convenient/comfortable for the angler but is usually detrimental to the fish. Playing Fish- Thinking is if you are regularly catching fish that require SEVERAL minutes to revive you are using tackle that is far too light for the target fish. Those fish are Exhausted and suffering from Lactic Acid buildup. Not suggesting you are but folks who seem pleased they battled a fish for 3 hours on a 1wt rod are misguided.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2019 19:12:56 GMT -6
I was under the impression Time out of water and Water Temp were the two main critical factors in mortality rates. Besides the obvious vertical fish holds and deep hooking issues. The actual releasing of the fish is the most important aspect. It is part of the actual phrase. If you don't release the fish it will die. Other factors leading up to the release affects the mortality rate on a sliding scale based on fish handling, but NOT releasing the fish has a 100% mortality rate. Pretty simple really. Silly me I missed the blatantly obvious yet again:) That said I'm still not sure what modern techniques you are suggesting we adopt ?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2019 19:15:27 GMT -6
I know base on experience that Rainbow trout are very sensitive when it come to being out of the water. While a Brown has more endurance. I lipped a lot of Bass ...largemouth and peacocks, did not know that was Bad for them! Not sure I understand the difference between being dragged by a hook and lipping makes a diff. ( again of course size makes a diff.) The problem with lipping is that it creates a distribution of weight that can cause a lot of internal structural damage. C+R as part of your fishing practice is a tricky idea and is far more nuanced than just what you do after you have caught a fish.
|
|
|
Post by brian on Sept 18, 2019 7:16:52 GMT -6
Being from Alberta,our rules are different.Scented bait is scented.No difference if it's moldable[power bait] or fish[dead].It's against the law to use it.Reason being is the fish tend to swallow this bait.Where as a fly,or bare hook.They generally are lip hooked.I find that large fish,fight harder,exert themselves to exhaustion.Proper release is essential.Lactate acid forms on these fish.Releasing, if not done properly results in the fish,sinking to the bottom to die.All trophy style fisheries should imo,be C&R.With NO ICE fishing & NO BAIT. IMO Forgot to mention .That barbless hooks,should be mandatory.Alberta reverted,back to barbed hooks.Some nimrod biologist said,produced a scietific research doc.That statedbarbed vs debarbed,showed NO conclusive resultoff .A higher mortality from barbed hooks.Technical data was used,no practical data.I'll guaruntee you sink a barbed triple hook in your body.The damage done in getting it out will be dramatic.Eyes,for an,leg,cheek etc.
|
|
Robert Burton
Fly Fishing Zombie
Eventually all things merge into one, and a river runs through it.
Posts: 4,744
|
Post by Robert Burton on Sept 18, 2019 8:41:13 GMT -6
That said I'm still not sure what modern techniques you are suggesting we adopt ? Again, in the actual O.P. I did a quick synopsis of a few of the changes that have come in the world of C&R. You're old like me and I have seen the concept and techniques considered 'C&R' change drastically since learning about fishing from my grandfather. He was a 'serious' conservationist of his time with the 'put the smaller ones back so they can grow' version of C&R that would be a crime today. You can look in the regs under the 'don'ts' related to C&R to find some techniques of the past that were considered do's. The point might be, imagine getting the world of fly fishing. Low impact fishing. Low impact on the environment. Catching fish without bait, scents, attractants. Getting around the massive world of casting a bit of line out. Being more serious about C&R, a long journey from your "limiting out as a goal days" Now imagine your pride at catching a fish only to get reprimand from some established fly rodder over a fish handling technique that wouldn't raise one hair on one eye brow in the conventional fishing world. This is something we see all over the fly fishing world. Social Media groups and what's left of forums like this. Hence the picture. If anyone wants to lecture folks on fish handling, fishing morality and/or laws....they can go to Lockport. (or regional equivalent) no shortage of teachable moments there. Yes and agreed Ice Fishing and C&R are an oxymoron.
|
|
|
Post by lurker1818 on Sept 18, 2019 10:44:11 GMT -6
Yes I have caught fish that has taken SEVERAL minutes for them to revive themselves, and no I don't fish with a 1wt. Often I have spent more time getting a fish going again than it took to bring it in, but I also don't put the fish back in the water, give it a few wiggles, and let it go. The fish that I catch swim out of my grip, so I know that at least they are moving on their own.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2019 17:53:01 GMT -6
That said I'm still not sure what modern techniques you are suggesting we adopt ? Again, in the actual O.P. I did a quick synopsis of a few of the changes that have come in the world of C&R. You're old like me and I have seen the concept and techniques considered 'C&R' change drastically since learning about fishing from my grandfather. He was a 'serious' conservationist of his time with the 'put the smaller ones back so they can grow' version of C&R that would be a crime today. You can look in the regs under the 'don'ts' related to C&R to find some techniques of the past that were considered do's. The point might be, imagine getting the world of fly fishing. Low impact fishing. Low impact on the environment. Catching fish without bait, scents, attractants. Getting around the massive world of casting a bit of line out. Being more serious about C&R, a long journey from your "limiting out as a goal days" Now imagine your pride at catching a fish only to get reprimand from some established fly rodder over a fish handling technique that wouldn't raise one hair on one eye brow in the conventional fishing world. This is something we see all over the fly fishing world. Social Media groups and what's left of forums like this. Hence the picture. If anyone wants to lecture folks on fish handling, fishing morality and/or laws....they can go to Lockport. (or regional equivalent) no shortage of teachable moments there. Yes and agreed Ice Fishing and C&R are an oxymoron. Is there a list of topics that are considered off limits when engaging on a fly fishing forum? I hav'nt been around forums for a while. #1 - Do not attempt to educate a fellow fly fisher on best practices when it comes to trying to ensure that the fish stocks survive the C+R experience. It was never my intention to reprimand anyone - it was simply my intention to point out that there are ways of handling fish that don't cause harm to the fish.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2019 17:57:38 GMT -6
Being from Alberta,our rules are different.Scented bait is scented.No difference if it's moldable[power bait] or fish[dead].It's against the law to use it.Reason being is the fish tend to swallow this bait.Where as a fly,or bare hook.They generally are lip hooked.I find that large fish,fight harder,exert themselves to exhaustion.Proper release is essential.Lactate acid forms on these fish.Releasing, if not done properly results in the fish,sinking to the bottom to die.All trophy style fisheries should imo,be C&R.With NO ICE fishing & NO BAIT. IMO Forgot to mention .That barbless hooks,should be mandatory.Alberta reverted,back to barbed hooks.Some nimrod biologist said,produced a scietific research doc.That statedbarbed vs debarbed,showed NO conclusive resultoff .A higher mortality from barbed hooks.Technical data was used,no practical data.I'll guaruntee you sink a barbed triple hook in your body.The damage done in getting it out will be dramatic.Eyes,for an,leg,cheek etc. I'm curious? do the Alta rules allow natural organisms which are part of the fishes natural diet - so bugs that live in the same water as the fish - to be used? I find a certain irony in all this:)) I started fly fishing as a kid in Scotland because that is what the people around me did when trying to catch fish. Wild Brown Trout in streams and rivers caught on simple wet hackle flies or simple dry flies. I remember when I got a little older reading books about fishing in particular Border River Angling by the great WH Lawrie - pretty mush a bible of traditional angling, who wrote some of the most influential early books on traditional fly fishing as practised in Great Britain. Chapters on Dry fly fishing, Wet fly fishing, Nymph fishing, Reading water, basic entomology etc. Here is the beginning of the of the seriously intimidating - to a 12ish year old kid who had been fly fishing and tying flies for a few years already - chapter on "Worm Fishing and natural lures" " In order to be a consistently successful angler it is necessary to study and practise the art of angling with the small pink worm in low and clear waters. The art is not one which can be mastered in a one season, for it takes years of experience to make an expert up-stream worm fisher, of whom there are few enough.The beginner must make up his mind to undertake a to serve a lengthy apprenticeship .........." Special 13 ' + ultra light cane rods were available specifically for the task or for the equally difficult and skillful Creeper/Gadger ( live stonefly nymphs) fishing . I stuck to fly fishing it took way less dedication and skill!!! It wasn't until a few years later that I plucked up the courage and balls to try learning the skills needed using small pink worms and live Stonefly nymphs:)) Over the last ten years or so I have been enjoying Keiryu fishing , I have rods up to 24' there is a a lot of satisfaction in showing up at a waterbody with a bare hook and rumaging around finding the natural food items which form the fishes diet and using them to catch fish.
|
|
|
Post by brian on Sept 18, 2019 18:32:30 GMT -6
You can use bait natural[maggots,worms,grasshoppers.No live fish.Fish parts,but not in trout waters ,i believe.Flowing water.Really distinct times,for bait like maggots.Our rocky mtn.whitefish,usally spawn in rivers in August[maggots are bait of choice]We only have maybe 10-12 Quality stocked trout fisheries in the whole prov.Most trout lakes are put in to take out.Limit mostly 5 any size.Pretty disgusting seeing people cast ,directly in front of the dump shoot.Where the years stockings are be planted [ 6"-7"].People will try to use stone fly larva[hellgramites]in rivers,stearms.But most flowing water has C&R on them .Hope that answers some.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2019 18:49:18 GMT -6
You can use bait natural[maggots,worms,grasshoppers.No live fish.Fish parts,but not in trout waters ,i believe.Flowing water.Really distinct times,for bait like maggots.Our rocky mtn.whitefish,usally spawn in rivers in August[maggots are bait of choice]We only have maybe 10-12 Quality stocked trout fisheries in the whole prov.Most trout lakes are put in to take out.Limit mostly 5 any size.Pretty disgusting seeing people cast ,directly in front of the dump shoot.Where the years stockings are be planted [ 6"-7"].People will try to use stone fly larva[hellgramites]in rivers,stearms.But most flowing water has C&R on them .Hope that answers some. Interesting regs i must say. I used to live in Edmonton in the early 80's and mostly fished down along the Forestry Trunk Rd and up at the Stauffer/North Raven. North Raven was like an education , brown trout with PHD's , definiteley my favorite place to fish , I got skunked there more than any other place I have ever fished:)) and learned an awful lot about entomology and fly pattern design.
|
|
|
Post by brian on Sept 19, 2019 6:52:29 GMT -6
Population growth has a lot to do with reg's.For instance Calgary mil 4,Edmonton mil,red deer 3/4 mil In the case of the 3 you could easily add 1/4 mil to Cal&Edmonton from sat.towns..I find that,trying to explain to alot of the NEW immagrants.That you have to release these fish.Especially those caught in flowing waters.Alberta doesnot stock,it's flowing waters All natural.A 6-7" fish stocked in a lake is still consider supper for most of these people.With most of there families ma,pa 2-3 kids & parents over 65 No licence fees .For kids under 16,or older than 65.But they can all take 5 fish each 365 days a year.Ma&Pa 5 ea @day. So the potential for a family of 5 with 2 seniors would ba 35 fish day.No stocked fishery can sustain this.Hatchery fish,raised to 6" cost approx 100.00 per/kg to raise .From eggs-too 6" ....
|
|
Robert Burton
Fly Fishing Zombie
Eventually all things merge into one, and a river runs through it.
Posts: 4,744
|
Post by Robert Burton on Sept 19, 2019 9:04:39 GMT -6
Nope I am saying if you want to C&R you are on your way by releasing the fish, you are further on your way by using a single hook, not using bait, using a fly, etc. If one is interested in C&R they should study it as hard as they studied catching the fish. If you are already at the apex of C&R and you feel the need to educate folks, try people who are are literally killing fish rather than someone well on their way. No sense chiding your neighbour about putting a coffee cup in the recycling while your other neighbour is pouring used motor oil in the sewer.
|
|