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Post by flyfisheranonymous on Sept 30, 2004 10:56:29 GMT -6
Well finally got back to the river last night. My Newbie didn't show up so I had some fun fishing with Rob ( new to the Red ) and Stephen. Rob landed 4 Sauger and fouled 1 Drum. Stephen landed the smallest Stone Cat I have ever seen. Gave him a good fight though. I landed 4 Sauger, 1 Drum and lost a biggie. Had to be a Cat 'cause he hit close to the surface. Not to productive but a great night of company. Thanks guys.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2004 7:20:01 GMT -6
" ...it hit close to the surface"?
Stu: help me out here. I've been dragging the bottom as best as possible, thinking that was the only place to interest a cat and now you hint that they are near the surface? Did you mean that you saw a swirl or that it took your fly well up off the bottom? Please help me out!...TIM
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Post by cane on Oct 4, 2004 8:00:57 GMT -6
<not Stu but.. i too have heard the " if your not dragging bottom you aint doing it right" thing. My own experience with all the cats i tied into this year, has been thats only true if thats where they feeding:). The vast majority of the fish i,ve had have been taken using approaches other than dredging, including a 34" that rose to a hex emerger in the floodway after having seen it feeding on the surface, i think that was my fav. fish this year:)))
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2004 8:22:58 GMT -6
Interesting:
I've been out in the spring and seen cats ripping up the surface - hitting goldeye, no doubt, all across the river. Always wondered if a big streamer, stripped close to the surface, would work on them. Only one way to find out, I guess.
What I do find interesing is that there were times this summer when I was catching them in 2 - 3 feet of water and there were almost zero bulges - maybe two or three over the course of the morning. You'd think fish of that much substance would show a little more often, unless they weren't feeding and I just got lucky enticing them to hit. Oh well, a point to be pondered as the snow sets up to fly....TIM
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Robert Burton
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Post by Robert Burton on Oct 4, 2004 12:41:33 GMT -6
I caught 8 in a row one night from a shallow riffle coming out of the floodway. On an slightly weighted fly but with a floating line. The cats in this instance did show themselves as they were actively feeding on shiners so I tossed a grey marabou streamer.....tons of fun All the cats I caught last year were on a floating line...mind you it was a low water year.
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Post by flyfisheranonymous on Oct 4, 2004 12:56:41 GMT -6
Tim: One thing to remember is that we are fishing for a top of the line predator. They will feed every where there is food. Let me put it this way. If I was the only one that had pie to give to you and you loved pie then you would costantly be at my place eating till your hearts content. Now if all the people you know had pie to give you where would you go? You could go anywhere. The food items for Cats are all through the water column so they will go where the food item is most plentiful. Sometimes on the bottom and sometimes on top. All the fish I caught the other night were close to the surface. In fact when the fly was being lifted out of the water for the next cast is actually when I got all my hits. The baitfish were all in the top 6" of the water. As for Cats making a disturbance in 2-3 feet of water, they do. You would have to spend time watching the surface to spot any signs that do not belong. Caddisguy always bugs me about the number of fish I see and not catch. But I do see them. Next time you are at the floodway watch the Carp. You will notice the big fish do not leave that much of a disturbance but watch what they do leave. How's that for a jumbled explanation.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2004 13:16:57 GMT -6
Damn! Give the man a chance and he'll throw a PIE analogy, right in your face!
I know what you mean about cats making a disturbance -- I've seen it and I watch for it -- but I have seen very little on some days when I've caught them in shallow water.
Stu: I know this is an odd year, with the high water and all, but would you normally expect to get cats up around the locks in late Sept or early Oct?
(Which leads me to a related question: is it time for some of the big forheads on the Board to pull together a treatise on ffing for cats at Lockport?)
Robert: that's all I use as well (floating line) but there are times when a little extra lead finds its way on to the line in front of a clauser....TIM
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Post by cane on Oct 4, 2004 17:45:33 GMT -6
Tim- while i dont disagree that an article on Red River Catting would be helpfull:)) - I think more usefull would be some discussion from some of the folks who " study " FF,ing/ their quarry etc and how that "studying" creates more of a potential vocabulary of tactics and patterns . IMHO its one of the defining aspects of FF,ing that makes it so engaging, and makes one FF,er more successfull than an other in variable circumstances.
You mentioned and NOTED that you have taken cats in shallow water with no visible evidence of their presence- what could be going on?
it suggests -
-they are feeding on an organism that requires little excersion to take? -we know hex and album nymphs are in high density in the Red -and move from their burrows and scuttle around on the bottom , moving laterally to shallow water - during low light conditions- from pre- dusk till after dawn- to feed all during the season is that the prey? -they are disloding an easily disturbed slow swimming prey- leeches?
pretty sure there are some other possibilities
Soo- now we have two possibles to test in the next similar circumstance- leeches and burrowing mayfly nymphs- we tie them up , figure out an appropriate presentation tactic for each,and look for the opportunity to test the theory on top of our usual throw a clouser and or whatever and strip it in- if it works we have added to the/our knowledge base.
in my usual long winded way- i,m trying to say:))- the practise itself becomes the teacher if your willing to be a student. Its fine to rely on do this, do thats to get going in the right direction, but anyone who says theres only one way to skin a cat has,nt met many cats:)))
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Post by fishinmusican on Oct 4, 2004 18:37:01 GMT -6
I think that was one of the most telling nights. To see that kitty come up and take that caddis was a hoot. I think what happens to me sometimes is I get the blinders on and fall into habits ie: fishing a clouser 1/4 cast up and put lots of drag into the retrieve. A proven tactic but as cane says there's more than one way to skin a kitty. When I find myself in those funks or I'm just not getting what the fish are telling me I go into my what if mode or I step back and watch and go back to school. Stu and cane have said it better than I could ever say it. Just thought I'd put in my two cents.....KIM
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Robert Burton
Fly Fishing Zombie
Eventually all things merge into one, and a river runs through it.
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Post by Robert Burton on Oct 4, 2004 20:07:48 GMT -6
Now my question to cane is: Did you study the cats via reference material and found they eat nymphs or did you have a hunch or did you see it happen?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2004 13:58:58 GMT -6
Cane: I agree with you entirely. I wasn't thinking so much about getting the "right" info on paper, so much as engaging the curious and the passionate ffers who are more interested in "why" we catch them than how. Knowing that you caught a cat on a hex emerger kinda made my day, too. I'm new enough at this that any cat I catch still leaves me a little incredulous. So, no article for Fly Fishing, but a Coalition of the Curious.
Re: if they are in the shallows and not showing? One of the things I was wondering was the possibility that they were not really feeding, but still hanging around after a night of gluttony. Most of my Lockport time is in the morning (sunrise to 8:00am or so), and I have thought that the fish could still be holding in shallow lies but not actively feeding -- in which case, getting a fly on the bottom, right on their nose, is the most sensible approach. If they are working smaller stuff - hex. leech, etc - wouldn't that be interesting!...TIM
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Post by RickL on Oct 5, 2004 21:11:34 GMT -6
I tried a small experiment this summer at the floodway outlet. I had read an article a few years back about a fellow that was bassin' down south and was nailing cats on poppers. I tried that in a shallow run ( a few feet deep) where there were a number of active feeding cats. I tossed out a small Potomac Special that I tied from an article by Lefty Kreh and darn if I didn't get a couple of strikes. No hookups so I switched over to a streamer and the cats I caught were in the upper 20's - low 30" range. Go figure.
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Post by cane on Oct 6, 2004 7:49:42 GMT -6
Robert- not that helpfull!!! - but all of the above:))- bit like do you remember specific scales when your playing?
Tim- lol- coalition of the curiuos - i sense a t-shirt in the making:))))))))))))
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Post by bookemdano on Oct 6, 2004 8:15:29 GMT -6
I experimented this summer with what I thought looked like a goldeye (streamer style - hook point down weighted shank) - prior to Cane and Kim's success with the Secret Clouser.
Mine was quite a substantial fly with a grey back, silver crystal falsh lateral line, white bucktail belly, red throat, and yellow eyes under an epoxy head. When I saw the Secret Clouser it was quite similar yet much more sparse - at least 1/4 the depth of my fly maybe even slimmer.
Kim and Cane were slamming fish right beside me and I did not have one hit on that fly.
So even though my pattern looked more like a real goldeye to me - the sparse pattern produced.
Maybe because it was more representative of the average baitfish on The Red? Maybe it got down deeper? Maybe it appeared more translucent under water as minnows do?
I don't know for sure but it reinforced a frequent theme in fly tying literature that sparse is better than bulky.
Dano
PS The thinking/experimenting/learning process is extremely engaging. It is much more rewarding than "do this/do that". I find one weakness of mine is that I rush and get too excited. The "peace" that we find on the water seems to appear for me only after I step back, slow things down, forget about my schedule for the week, enjoy a casual conversation with a fellow fisher, and gradually lose myself in the thinking/experimenting/learning, the noise, the smells, and the beauty.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2004 8:39:25 GMT -6
Dano:
Shame on me for my irreverence, but when I thought about you "...losing yourself in the noise, the smells and the beauty" and I thought about Lockport, I thought that, maybe, that's the place to focus on the fish!
But you are so right: when we lose our curiosity and our awareness of our humble place in stunning settings, it's time buy walleye fillets in bulk. For me, one of the great aesthetics of Lockport is watching pelicans. Their group attacks on hapless minnows, the undulating lines of birds trading from loafing bars to feeding sites...priceless. TIM
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Post by bookemdano on Oct 6, 2004 8:53:34 GMT -6
I know - lots of people hack on Lockport for various reasons - smell, garbage, muddy river. But, after a bit, the bad stuff fades for me and I can't help but focus on the good things - like those cool pelican hunting tactics.
Dan
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Robert Burton
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Eventually all things merge into one, and a river runs through it.
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Post by Robert Burton on Oct 6, 2004 9:39:42 GMT -6
Ya those pelicans landing like a prehistoric air squadron. I have also seen some spectacular northern lights. re: I have often felt the analogies between my jazz playing and my fly fishing (and my sprititual beliefs FWIW). Mostly I related to the challenges, and spritual/zen aspects. When I am playing I have to be aware of everything. Often some one on the bandstand asks "what scale did you use on that chord" and I will usually know. But your analogy is quite apt as if someone asked me to repeat a specific lick 5 seconds after the tune is over there is no chance i could without a recording of it for me to lift. Gawd we're a cerebral bunch
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Post by fishinmusican on Oct 6, 2004 20:17:00 GMT -6
I know lockport gets slammed alot about the smell, the mess ect. but there were more than a couple of times when Will and I were out there and got to witness hatches that were to say in the least "stunning".That alone made up for the fact that I went catless for the night. I agree with you Tim we have to keep that childlike attitude of being awed by Mother Nature.You know the fishing was slow to tough up in the ducks this fall but man did I see some incredible things up there. Lockport may be more tramped on by humanity but is to me as stunning as the Ducks. You just have to lok for it.....Kim
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2004 10:08:45 GMT -6
Northern Lights?
Robert: I have not bothered to ff at Lockport very long after sunset, assuming that streamers would never be noticed in that murky water. Have I been wrong all this time?...TIM
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stephenjay
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Post by stephenjay on Oct 7, 2004 10:57:43 GMT -6
I will quickly interject with a report on fishing last night at Lockport. Water was very cold, and I didn't see any pelicans or gulls at all. Only a couple of those fish ducks or whatever.
I was skunked (except for one LDR pike), but had a great night anyway. No hatch, not much surface activity, and the current is a bit less than last week. Just a couple of rocks are visible of Pelican Island.
The fish pulled out by the bâït and gear folks were mostly walleyes and saugers, nothing too big. I have noticed the last couple of weeks that a few of the bâït and gear folks are now getting into chest waders and coming out to the middle of the river with us. I guess if they cant beat us with their casts; they join us. I must say it was a bit odd to see one gentleman wading back to shore with a chain stringer clipped to his waist strap and a fish in tow.
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Robert Burton
Fly Fishing Zombie
Eventually all things merge into one, and a river runs through it.
Posts: 4,744
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Post by Robert Burton on Oct 7, 2004 13:26:53 GMT -6
Northern Lights? Robert: I have not bothered to ff at Lockport very long after sunset, assuming that streamers would never be noticed in that murky water. Have I been wrong all this time?...TIM I have caught cats in the dark there...yup. Usually near the dam that has lots of bright lights. Last year I waded out in the light to a point that was out of the water, past that tree. Got nadda for the longest time then sauger, drum, goldeyes and one big cat (ain't they all) With the heart a pumpin it was a little dicey wading back to shore in the dark but worth it.
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Post by scaleson on Oct 8, 2004 9:03:43 GMT -6
NOTES FROM AN EXPERIENCED FF [(started FF mid may 2004)
having fished the red two nights last week and two nights this week ,I have to admit that I had agreat time pondering pelicans, cormorants,gulls and geese
no hits, and no fish, but my line chucking is either improving slightly or I'm getting used to my own faults
during the four evenings almost every different fly was tried.....but the fish were rising within 10-15 feet of me and seemed to be slipping something....some nights the may hatch was large and some nights extreemely negligible......last night the water was very low but not so low the other nights......my best guess is the fish rose to take the 1-1.25 inch cigar shaped boatmen that were swimming up and down in the current ( very impressive swimmers)
the red has been good to me this year
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